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7. (final) Problems and Perspectives of Socionics.

 
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Дмитрий и Марианна Лытовы



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[ семинар "Соционика" ]

МнениеПуснато на: 31 Яну 2005 23:51:23    Заглавие: 7. (final) Problems and Perspectives of Socionics. Отговорете с цитат

It is so sorry that so few questions have been asked. Anyway, we are open for future questions - you can visit the Bulgarian section of our site:

http://socioniko.narod.ru/bg/

In this topic we will try to summarize what we have told, and to outline main problems of socionics and our vision of its perspectives.
(to be continued)
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Дмитрий и Марианна Лытовы



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[ семинар "Соционика" ]

МнениеПуснато на: 01 Фев 2005 18:45:37    Заглавие: Отговорете с цитат

PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF SOCIONICS.
Main spheres of application of socionics are almost the same as for the Myers-Briggs Type Theory (MBTT), except for one particular thing: MBTT deals only with intertype differences, while socionics also deals with intertype compatibility.

Career Guidance and Education
There are two different approaches in socionics that describe predetermination of socionic types to certain kinds of activities.

The first was proposed by psychologists from Kiev, Victor Gulenko, Valentina Meged and Anatoly Ovcharov. They several years worked as career guidance consultants in an employment center. In the situation of economic crisis that was present in the former USSR, many people lost their jobs and had to start their careers again, from the zero point.

Gulenko, Meged and Ovcharov discovered that the combination of two Jungian criteria, sensation/intuition and logic/ethic, is “responsible” for people’s success in their career choice. (The same approach is used in MBTT). They developed a list of recommended and non-recommended occupations for the representatives of these groups. You can find short description of these groups (in Russian) here:
http://socioniko.narod.ru/ru/1.1.types/club.html
However, their approach was too “radical”, it did not consider people who may have chosen a “wrong” occupation in their childhood, but later achieved some success – maybe not as leaders, but at least as “average good workers”.

Yuri Ivanov, a socionist from Moscow, proposed a less radical approach. He studied occupational requirements, according to GOST (Государственный стандарт – Russian State System of Standardization), and for some occupations he proposed lists of MORE and LESS suitable types. This approach also seems to be more realistic and less idealistic, since we know that each occupation is in fact an INFRASTRUCTURE that unites many different people. For example, it is true that many scientists belong to intuitive-logical types. However, if sensory and ethical types were absolutely absent in science, then science would not function as a system, there would be only alone daydreamers not recognized and not understood by other people.

The intertype relationships are also very important in business. When we create a team, it is important not only to find skilled people, it is also important that they can work together without conflicts. Sometimes knowledge of intertype relationships also allows solving problems in already long existing teams, enterprises etc.

Family Consulting
In this sphere, the theory of intertype relationships plays a significant role. Of course we can empirically suppose where two certain people will have points of (mis)understanding, but this is not enough. In long-term relationships, such as families, it is also important to know POTENTIAL of these relationships, in other words, where we are able to change situation significantly, and where it will remain unchanged even in spite of significant efforts.

The favorite myth of many psychological school says: an experienced psychologist can make any two people get along together well. The truth is different: problems of understanding do exist, and the demand for psychological services grows. Now we have to little time to discuss the methods used in socionic consulting, but you can find their descriptions in corresponding socionic articles.

OK, one question: suppose two people, a husband and a wife, came to a socionist and say: help us, we cannot tolerate each other! Should this socionist say "you have to divorce!” if he diagnoses their relationship as "conflict”, “supervision”, “contrast”, “order” or “super-ego” (names of potentially unfavorable relationships in socionics, see the Table of Relationships in the previous topic)? Or what should he do if they already have been living together for many years, have common children etc.? It is not easy to explain in few words, but let us try. First, the socionist should realize what these people really want, and which resources they dispose to make their expectations come true. These people anyway know each other better than the socionist, just because they spent so much time together! The diagnosis of their types and their relationship shows whether their expectations are realistic. If they are not, the socionist should propose an alternative, and explain why they cannot do what they want. If they are realistic, then the socionist should show them how to redirect their mutual reproaches into a positive direction. In other words, the socionists needs to ANALYZE, STRUCTURE and SYSTEMATIZE their experience from the viewpoint of the socionic Model A. And then, everything depends on the socionists’s own experience and competence, Because the Model A itself does not solve all the problems, it only determines (to certain extent) what is possible and what is not. It's just like our vital experience: we know that only a woman can give birth to a child, not a man; but whether THIS PARTICULAR woman can become pregnant, depends on many factors, such as her health, age etc.

On the other hand, socionics became a very popular method of dating. The most popular site of socionic dating is www.socionics.org – here you can pass some short (not always reliable, however) tests, determine your own type and then add your information into a database, or look through this database for a potentially compatible type. However, even if two young people, he and she, are duals (e.g. intuitive-logical extrovert and sensory-ethical introvert) of approximately the same age, it does not yet mean that they will like each other. It only means that IF THEY WILL, then they will have better chances to create a happy family than two types in the relationship of order (e.g., intuitive-logical extrovert and ethical-intuitive extrovert). The family statistics independently collected by different socionists shows that dual families make the majority of all families (from 20 to 40% in different experiments – if intertype relationships did not influence interpersonal compatibility, the percentage would have never exceed 6-7%). However, sometimes even duals may divorce.
(to be continued)
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Дмитрий и Марианна Лытовы



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[ семинар "Соционика" ]

МнениеПуснато на: 03 Фев 2005 0:09:23    Заглавие: Отговорете с цитат

HYPOTHESES IN SOCIONICS
Here we will describe in brief the topics of main arguments and discussions in socionics.
Types and Masks
Can people “play roles” of other types, and how successful are they in playing such roles?
This is a very important question, closely related to the problem of NATURE OF THE TYPE.
Just because we got to know WHAT THE 16 TYPES REALLY DESCRIBE.
Does socionics describe only momentary manifestations of people and their momentary interactions, or it deals with something deeper?
Although this question cannot be answered completely without profound psychophysiological researches, at least the socionic statistics of families shows that the intertype relationships represent something stable, and thus types are also more or less stable.
Our impression is that the term “masks” attracts only those socionists who are not experienced in determining people types, not experienced in psychodiagnostics.

Types and Subtypes
Can people described in more exact terms than the 16 types? Can we describe variations within each of the 16 socionic types?
In socionics, there are several hypotheses of subtypes. However, ONLY HYPOTHESES. Their authors can describe subtypes but cannot derive regularities from these descriptions; or they propose unreal regularities not recognized by other socionists.

Duality and Quadras
The Quadra is the group of 4 types linked with the relationships of duality, mirror and activation. It is simple: let us take, for example, the type intuitive-logical extrovert. His strongest functions are extroverted intuition and introverted logic. If we take the same functions in the reverse order, it will be the logical-intuitive introvert. And then, we will add the duals of these types, i.e., sensory-ethical introvert and ethical-sensory extrovert.
What is the Quadra? This is a group of COMMON VITAL VALUES. The Quadra is something more than just a sum of 4 types: in communication within a Quadra, they obtain some new characteristics in addition to what we learned from the descriptions of these 4 types. It is like NaCl in chemistry, which is not a mixture of Na and Cl but something different.
There are 4 quadras. In socionics, they are referred to by Greek letters (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta) or by numbers (1, 2, 3 and 4).

It is interesting to watch the role of Quadras in history. The first Quadra (the types Searcher, Mediator, Bonvivant and Analyst) usually begins reforms but never succeeds in their completion – for this it is not enough decisive. The intuitive types of this Quadra are often known as dreamers-idealists, such as Einstein or Sakharov, while sensory types are known as leaders of amorphous regimes, not democratic, but also too mild to be called dictatorships – such as Dimitrov, Arafat, Nikita Khrushchev.

The second Quadra very rarely invents its own ideas – it rather implements already invented ideas,often with “decisiveness” that sometimes turns into cruelty. This quadra, on the one hand, is full of romantic writers and religious authorities (intuitive types) and successful military commanders and managers (sensory types), but it is also known for many dictators – in fact, most of dictators whose biographies have been studied by socionists had belonged to the types of the 2nd Quadra: Hitler, Ceausescu, Hussein, Lenin, Pinochet etc.

The third Quadra is similar to the 2nd quadra for its voluntarism and belief that “competition decides everything!”, but it is much milder by its methods than the 2nd Quadra. The intuitive types of this quadra are practice-focused intellectuals who develop methods instead of hypotheses – such as Newton (he often said “I never invent hypotheses!”), Bill Gates, etc. And sensory types of this quadra are often successful politicians – such as Sylvio Berlusconi, Jacques Chirac, Richard Nixon etc.

The fourth Quadra can be called Perfectionists. Intuitive types of this Quadra are very attentive to all manifestation of people’s talents, examples –Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Mark Twain; and sensory types of this quadra are perfect in “getting big results without making much movements and noise”, examples – Margaret Thatcher, Helmuth Kohl, etc. Politicians of the 4th quadra are successful in stable societies.

Social Order and Social Supervision
You may have noticed that the socionic system of relationships includes some ASYMMETRIC relationships, i.e. those where roles of two partners are not equal. Why does it happen? We will not describe all these relationships here, but you can visit the descriptions of asymmetric relationships in Russian, and look how the Model A describes their nature:
http://socioniko.narod.ru/ru/1.3.rels/assim.html

Macrotypes (Ethnic Unities)
Do socionic types describe only people, or also greater entities?
Starting from the XIX century, many historians wrote about “ethnic types”, about “national characters”. Under these “national characters” we mean traits cultivated in any particular nation for a very long historical period of many centuries; these traits allow distinguishing “our people” from “not our people”. For example, Germans are known for their pedantry, love for order, but also for lack of tolerance to those who is “too weak to conform to the rules”. And although each particular German may be different from this model, he at least knows some “social rituals” which help him survive in the German society but sometimes cause misunderstanding when he communicates with peoples of other nations, for example with Britons.
Lev Gumilev, a Russian historian, created a very detailed theory of “birth, development and death” of “ethnic unities” which, according to him, exist approximately 1000 – 1500 years each. Thus, Italians represent a DIFFERENT ethnic unity than ancient Romans; Germans and Austrians represent DIFFERENT ethnic unities, even in spite of the common language; at the same time, Jews, even speaking various languages, represent ONE ethnic unity. The things that makes people one ethnic unity is the “national character”.
Can this “national character” be described in terms of socionics?
We have too little time to describe the details; let us just present preliminary conclusions (according to Victor Gulenko, Alexander Bukalov and our own ideas).
Americans: logical-intuitive extrovert
Arabian: ethical-intuitive extrovert
Bulgarians: sensory-ethical introvert?
English: logical-sensory extrovert
Finnish: sensory-logical introvert
French: ethical-sensory extrovert
Germans: logical-sensory introvert
Russians: intuitive-ethical introvert
Spanish: intuitive-ethical extrovert
Turkish: sensory-logical extrovert

And so on. You can judge whether this hypothesis is justified.

The Dnipropetrovs’k Experiment, 1999
In 1999, on a socionic conference in Dnipropetrovs’k (Ukraine), a very risky and ambiguous experiment was organized.
Some people who did not know socionics were invited to the conference. They were proposed to pass some “tests” (in fact, these tests were a kind of placebo, their result meant nothing). Then these people obtained “test results”. In fact, they received stochastically selected descriptions of socionic types. Anyway, about 2/3 of these people told they had “something in common” with the descriptions they obtained.
What did this experiment mean?
It means that sometimes it is not enough when a tested person says “OK, this description is similar to me”. Sometimes people over- or underestimate themselves, make unrealistic judgments. It is a task of a psychologist to discover contradictions in his/her client’s sayings; such contradictions can clarify his/her type.
But it is also QUITE NOT ENOUGH to just diagnose the type and say: here, look who you are! The socionist should be experienced enough to transform an abstract type description, abstract intertype relationships into concrete “recipes” of how this person should solve specific tasks and vital problems, what he/she should evade, and where he/she should concentrate his/her efforts.

It was a great pleasure to talk to you. We appreciate this opportunity. We are also very much thankful to Kalin Yanev who organized these seminars. Thank you!

And we will visit this forum later. If you decide to ask you questions in 2-3 weeks after the completion of the seminar, you are welcome! (and of course you may ask your questions in Bulgarian, not only in English or Russian).
_________________
http://socioniko.narod.ru
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k. yanev
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Потребителски групи: Нула

МнениеПуснато на: 03 Фев 2005 21:58:52    Заглавие: Отговорете с цитат

We thank u too, Dmitri aand Marianna!
Was an honour and very interesting!
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Гост






Потребителски групи: Нула

МнениеПуснато на: 07 Фев 2005 2:40:20    Заглавие: Отговорете с цитат

Who can I send questions to? Where can I find information on models K and X? Any info on Igor Kalinauskas?
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МнениеПуснато на: 08 Фев 2005 10:43:48    Заглавие: Отговорете с цитат

Igor Kalinauskas is the "ancient past" of socionics, and his works are actually something like Aristotle's works in physics.
15 years ago he did a lot for popularization of socionics, but I cannot call him a scientist - he is rather a popular writer. Where did you find his name, at all?
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Lars
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МнениеПуснато на: 30 Юни 2005 0:28:07    Заглавие: Отговорете с цитат

Thank you for this great overview of socionics. I am from germany and don't understand russian, so this was a opportunity for me to learn more about socionics than the most english websites reveal :)
Btw. in german there's nearly nothing to get about socionics, the few websites are horribly designed and offer not very much or easy readable information.
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